The Orange 3G>2G Handover / missed call issue

[cj isleworth]

I've had people in the past mention 'I just tried to call you but it went to voicemail' but never really realised it was a problem until I read some other posts on this forum.

So tried some experiments today and yes - it does seem to be a major issue.

e.g.

When phone goes out of 3G coverage to 2G then back to 3G, the first incoming call after this either goes to Voicemail, or there is a network message to the incoming caller along the lines of 'sorry we cannot connect this call' (from my companies PABX this is 'NU' tone instead).

Incoming calls after this point do make the phone ring.

So it would seem to be something along the lines of the Orange telephony switches still directing the call to the 2G network when in fact the phone has switched to 3G, and either thinking the phone is 'out of coverage' (thence to voicemail) or getting confused.

Does this effect only happen for a short period after 2G/3G handover, or does it always affect the first call afterwards? For someone who is constantly going in and out of coverage this could be a huge issue.

Orange have asked me to keep my phone on 2G for a few days to see whether it helps. I am sure it will, but doesn't exactly help me as I bought a 3G phone to use 3G services!

Anyone have more experience of this, or have you heard what Orange may be doing to solve this (seemingly) network problem???

Colin

[umtsman2004]

This is a "quirk" of the system. When you switch between 2G<->3G it then takes a finite amount of time for the phone to update the network with its new position (should be around 4-5 seconds). During this time, you are effectively off the network, hence the call will go to Voicemail. This happens on all networks.

It also happens when you are solely on the 2G network, when you move between MSC/Location Areas (usually 2/3 in a city), but you have no indication on the phone that it is happening, so its pretty difficult for an ordinary punter to spot it. Its an accepted fact, e.g. for the OFCOM independent surveys, any calls which fail due to this are excluded from the results.

All networks are working on reducing this by ensuring that the phones do not switch too quickly between 2G/3G, and as the 3G networks coverage improves it will become less of a problem.

BTW which phone do you have?

[AndyFitter]

I've experienced this a lot, and even though I live in central London, coverage indoors is patchy to say the least, so the phone often switches between 2G and 3G.

The problem seems worse than the one you are describing, umtsman, and seems to be unique to orange, from what I've heard.

Basically, the phone switches between the different systems, and after that, *all* incoming calls do not connect, until you either make an outbound call/sms, turn the phone off and on again or some unspecified long period of time passes and the phone manages to re-register on the network. I've had situations where I've wondered why I've not received any calls for ages, make an outbound call and while I'm on the phone a number of voicemail indications arrive, and a number of SMS's too.

This happens even though the phone *appears* to have reception - the network name is present and the signal strength is not zero.

Noticed it on two 6630's so far, but there are posts on this forum reporting similar issues with other devices too.

Andy.

[LeMotor]

I've noticed the same on my Sanyo S750...

[cj isleworth]

Andyfitter is exactly right in his description of the problem. It is a lot LOT longer than the 4-5 seconds umtsman2004 talks about. In fact it appears to be from the point the handback from 2G to 3G happens up until the time a network facility is first accessed by the owner.

Having done more research it appears that the 2G to 3G handback is still a major issue for integrated 2G / 3G networks. Operators have quite rightly concentrated on the 3G to 2G handover so that people who fall out of 3G coverage can complete ongoing calls. But they still haven't mastered the 2G to 3G handback :cross-eye

However, it does seem that Orange are worse than the others in this respect. What network equipment manufacturer do they use? Is it different than, say, Vodafone? Whoever it is, I think they need to rollout a software update soon!

I too live in London and although 3G coverage is probably better here than most places in the UK there are blackspots, and there are occassions when the 3G basestations go off air, forcing a handover.

If you are a relatively infrequent maker of outgoing calls then your incoming calls may be being bounced for long periods because of this issue.

Of course I can't see any operator publicising this problem as 3G is still an 'emerging' technology and they can't afford for the publics confidence to be knocked.

Staying locked to 2G of course solves the problems, but COMPLETELY defeats the object of having a 3G phone :(

PS. I have a Nokia 6630 with the latest (v4) firmware. One of the issues this firmware was supposed to solve was in performing a 'blind handover' from WCDMA to GSM. Pity it hasn't been improved in the other direction :(

[fat jez]

I'm not sure that the handover is the problem. Where I work, the 3G coverage is excellent and my phone stays firmly locked onto the 3G network. However, I still get the odd missed call alert.

Cheers,
Jez

[hecatae]

the handover is the problem. where you work has nothing to do with it, if you switch from 2g to 3g, while travelling, you get the problems mentioned above.

[cj isleworth]

Yes - if on the way to work you pass through a single patch of 2G coverage, then go back into 3G, you could have missed calls for the rest of the day if you don't use your phone..... :O

[fat jez]

OK, let me clarify. Both my home and work are served by the same cell site, which provides excellent 3G coverage. I use my phone regularly during the day for both incoming and outgoing calls. However, periodically I will get the odd missed call alert even though the phone hasn't rung and I am still in the same excellent 3G coverage (the cell is about 100 yards from me at work and about 0.25 miles away from my house).

Cheers,
Jez

[cj isleworth]

I have noticed 3G sites 'dropping out' occassionally when I am in the office. This would also cause a handover, and again when the site comes back up.

[Spandau]

The problem occurs from soft handover in 3G to hard handover in 2G (GSM) -its a protocol matter which is Location Area based. It doesn't happen all over the country, just in areas where basic service between BSC/MSC has not been resolved. However the network still knows where you are when you remain radio linked or knew where you were when you dropped off the network. Unfortunately its no good to you when you drop off network - which is what is ticking you off I guess. This is not unique to one operator. it will be slowly reduced as more use 3G mobiles.

[owendwright]

Ok,

This is very interesting. But its now 5 months since the last post on this topic. Has anything changed. I am new to Orange 3G, using a Nokia 6680 and very recently experienced missed calls withut going out of cover. Also missed voicemail notifications. Is the problem any worse or any better?

Rgds

O

[mobieg]

no problems so far touch wood.

[CuppaT]

I know this is an old thread but i'm having a serious number of issues with my N70 with the phone not ringing yet numerous missed call text alerts - I wondered if anyone else is still experiencing the same as 3 months of Orange 'Support' hell has failed to find an answer yet apparently I should be grateful for using a service that only works 70% of the time :(

[Ukim]

serious number of issues with my N70 with the phone not ringing yet numerous missed call text alerts......apparently I should be grateful for using a service that only works 70% of the time :(

So are you saying you get ringing intermittently as you say "works 70% of the time"?

[bjh_101]

Well I have to say I used to have problems with the phone "dropping out of reception" on my old 7610. Never had a problem before that.

Now with my N80, it seems to be much better. I do occaisionally get missed call text messages, but that is straight after a dropped call when the person has tried to call me straight back. I notice that my N80 drops more calls than previous phones... but at least it rings consistantly!

I just got used to the problem on my 7610. (i mean, it wasn't all that bad)
Again, Orange weren't very helpful in my case either.

[CuppaT]

So are you saying you get ringing intermittently as you say "works 70% of the time"?

Sorry, by quoting 70% of the time, I mean whereby only approximately 70% of incoming calls to my handset will ever make it ring, the remaining 30% don't have any impact on the phone at all until shortly after when I receive the missed call alert.

Orange asked me try try 2G on the handset but I still found the same issue; they then proceeded to replace the unit. The new unit is just as bad with 3-4 calls a day being missed no matter where I am be it at home, 25 miles down the road at work or 250 miles away visiting family. I tried my sim in my old D500 which worked fine. Passing it back to tech support just restarts the cycle of switching to 2G blah blah blah - now after trying to escalate the problem Orange have put their foot down stating its a coverage issue and they are within their rights to offer a degraded service at full cost and in essence, my monthly line rental pays for inclusive minutes and as I make calls without issue (except recent Connection Error ones), the ability to receive SOME incoming calls should be seen as a bonus!

I really am at the end of my tether as any request for assistance yields no real help despite 6-7 years loyalty with them and no previous service issues. Needless to say when February comes round Orange will not be receiving further custom from me. :tired:

[Ukim]

Sorry, by quoting 70% of the time, I mean whereby only approximately 70% of incoming calls to my handset will ever make it ring, the remaining 30% don't have any impact on the phone at all until shortly after when I receive the missed call alert.

Orange asked me try try 2G on the handset but I still found the same issue; they then proceeded to replace the unit. The new unit is just as bad with 3-4 calls a day being missed no matter where I am be it at home, 25 miles down the road at work or 250 miles away visiting family. I tried my sim in my old D500 which worked fine. Passing it back to tech support just restarts the cycle of switching to 2G blah blah blah - now after trying to escalate the problem Orange have put their foot down stating its a coverage issue and they are within their rights to offer a degraded service at full cost and in essence, my monthly line rental pays for inclusive minutes and as I make calls without issue (except recent Connection Error ones), the ability to receive SOME incoming calls should be seen as a bonus!

I really am at the end of my tether as any request for assistance yields no real help despite 6-7 years loyalty with them and no previous service issues. Needless to say when February comes round Orange will not be receiving further custom from me. :tired:

CuppaT you make a fair point if Orange are not giving you the service you deserve.. DUMP them...you are not their secretary, they are however taking your money. Seems to me they owe you 6-7 years loyality.

The impression I get from what you say suggests it could be the handset maybe faulty (because your SIM works with the other handset) and you do get partial service (70% of the time) with the current handset. If handset under warranty...then exchanging the device may be one way to solve that issue. That is on the basis the problem you have is intermittent, but persistently re-occuring

Alternatively:
- Orange do have technical repair centres around the country - you could ask them to check and see if handset needs re-calibration
- also check if the handset contacts that touch the SIM when inserted are properly making contact (no dirt or grease on SIM/contacts). This can cause intermittent IMSI-attach/detach to occur. In english that means one moment you can be logged on to the network next you are not.

You say the problem can occur 25 miles down the road at work or 250 miles away, so not sure that its fair for me to suggest their coverage is crap everywhere.

I'll watch out for your posts and will ask a few people next week. If I hear anything useful I will post here....Long Live 3GForum.

Cheers Ukim

[CuppaT]

Thanks for taking the time to reply - I look foward to hear of any further information you come across.

In the mean time, phoning Orange day in day out isn't getting me anywhere so a letter has gone to their complaints department; i'll guess we'll see if that has any impact :rolleyes:

As for changing the handset, I think I agree with you as its obviously not coverage issues when my D500 is fine (2G) yet the N70 on 2G and 3G is poor. Orange's defence is that all handset models have different capabilities as far as achieving connection to their network and as they do not manufacture the handsets it is not their fault. My argument was why supply a model of phone that isn't great on their network then but again it falls on deaf ears only to have their script repeated to me. Anyway they have stated that they will not change the handset again as the replacement one has the same issues therefore it is not a handset fault.

We'll see if anything comes back from the letter - regardless, ROLL ON FEBRUARY!!!

[umtsman2004]

You should check the firmware version on your N70. The earlier versions had a "sensitvity" issue whereby they are a bit deaf, and hence may result in you missing some calls, which you would recieve on a normal phone. This has been fixed in later versions. Not sure which version of the firmware you need, but I'm sure someone on the forum may know the latest version.

If you do not recieve a replacement with the latest firmware, your other option may be to contact Nokia support to get them to re-flash the handset you do have (with the added benefit of losing the homescreen!)

[jimmy conway]

currently experiencing the same problem.

when i try to dial out i get 'error in connection' people trying to phone me get the phone is busy and i receive a text a few minutes later saying 'missed call'

reported it to orange this morning and it was 'news to them'. they put it down to a temporary network problem. they've put my details through to the technical department who will supposedly phone me back.

was advised to put the phone to 2G in the mean time.

not exactly what i hoped for when i got the handset.

[stickystickman]

I had this A LOT when with Orange. It mostly happened when moving in and out of 2g and 3g. Gone to voda 3g and it still happens but nowhere near as often. Their 3g coverage is very similar to orange in my town.

[jimmy conway]

the thing that annoys me most is the orange (or at least some of their customer service staff) don't seem to acknowledge that a problem exists. i was made to feel like i was imaging it.

i see what people mean about moving in and out of different zones but i'm getting this whilst at home. I'll have a 3G signal and check i can dial out but try again a few hours later and i'll get 'error in connection'.

i'm sticking with 2G for the moment. will give it a few days and then try again. see if this temporary network problem solves itself by then...

[marks]

I get this problem frequently when at home just outside Nottingham.

I first noticed it when i bought my first 3G phone which was a Sanyo S750, the problem was so bad that after complaining to Orange and getting the problem escalated they agreed to change my phone to the Nokia 6630.

Never had too many problems with that phone nor with the N80 which i had for a while, i have recently changed phones again to the K800i and most of the time i have to leave it on 2G to allow incoming calls so it would appear that even after a couple of years this still remains a constant problem for some.

[NB2CREW]

Interesting!!! I have been experiencing fluctuation with my Nokia N70 on calls... actually I have had this problem since I came back to orange in Febuary (having spent a year away with Three).

My signal strength will fluctuate a great deal in my home - without me actually moving and calls would drop out!

Today I decided to try somethingand swapped my sim card over into a Nokia 1100 and then I got a good signal - I called a mate of mine and asked him what he thought of the reception quality and he was shocked to find that I was talking on a mobile phone and not a land line! Looks like I will stick to the 1100 and sell my N70 & leave Orange when my contract is up for renewal.

[Tinyk]

Just switch the N70 to 2g / GSM mode it will be as good as the 1100 then.

i get exactly the same problems with my n80 and leave it at 2g 99% of the time.

[Orange Primate]

Gonna try to put this to bed
Maybe
lol :cheeky:

the technical explanation for the problem is that the two technologies (GSM and UMTS) are fundamentally different.

GSM has a fixed TRX "footprint". that is to say that it doesnt matter how many people are using the transceiver, it will give the same amount of area coverage as if no one was using it.

(there is a theology question......if no one was using a transmitter would it still be giving coverage?)

anyway i digress.....

a UMTS TRX uses a fixed power output, instead of fixed range. therefore the more people using the transceiver, the less distance it can cover, in essence the "footprint" breathes - i.e. moves in and out with the load

more people = less coverage
less people = more distance

So, this means that when you step down from 3G to 2G - every time you do your phone might need to speak to a different BTS possibly even a different MSC, thus making the transistion slighty less seemless as it could be


as a footnote orange have a firmware update for the n70 available on their website - apparently as previously advised the original was a little deaf, obviously contains a hearing aid in the firmware

Primate:cool: