Desperation!!!

[A1c]

The word seems to have been sent out from 3 HQ to the UK to get rid of as many handsets as possible as fast as possible regardless of the cost.

How else can you explain Nokia 7600's being sold for £60 for a year on Talk + Text 600 with a free BT Headset, accessories, delivery etc. 02 are charging €129 in Germany for them on a contract!

PrePay is similarly silly, £30 for fully featured NEC handsets!

Its the biggest customer grab of all time and it must be costing 3 UK a fortune when they pay the dealer commissions on top of all the rest.

Is this the last big kamakaze attempt to aquire customers before the inevitable launch of the big players 3G offerings? Looks like it. This seems like the best time to get silly deals from Hutchison, in 2005 the whole ball park will be very different. If you can live with the network (and its known issues) now is the time to seriously consider 3 as a product that could be useful even as a secondary service.

[Killahurts]

The title of this post sums up the authors attempts to discredit 3 wonderfully....

3 on the other have few reasons to be desperate:

1) They clocked up a million customers faster than any other new network before them

2) They are the fastest growing network in the UK - whilst others like Orange hit the rocks and are seeing their customer numbers fall

3) Their income per customer is higher than any other network

4) They have won national industry awards for their customer service solutions and value for money packages.

5) They rolled out a new company from scratch in roughly the same amount of time the existing four mobile companies have failed to simply upgrade their existing systems!

As for the £30 prepay handset - putting aside the fact thats only a tenner cheaper than prepay handsets from their opposition (you could never exect them to beat 3 on price after all!) - the phone is not a fully functioning 3 phone.

It doesnt support videocalling and only recently supported Today on 3.

You are howver right in saying it is probably the biggest customer grab of all time.

After all they took on more new customers in one month that Vodaphone did in the whole quarter!

As for Orange they are losing customers hand over fist.

All networks admit they are losing customers to 3 through churn

But whilst 3 offers the best value packages for customers bar none - they are still making the highest level of income from their customers of all the networks.

So desperation yes - but only from 3s knockers as 3 and their customers are laughing all the way to their respective banks...

[Gunner]

Three UK are most certainly buying customers right now - and I agree with 3GSU that it appears they're going for a major push before other players launch their own 3G services.

At the moment Three UK can distinguish itself on it's unique abilities such as video calling and downloads. The whole playing field for UK mobiles is going to change beyond recognition next year, making now and the rest of the run up to Christmas the ideal time to have a full blown assult.

I think it's very important to remember that Three UK are buying customers right now. With Hutch behind them, they've got the resources, and they're going to (try and) guarantee they cannot fail.

It's a great period for consumers.

[Killahurts]

Couldnt agree more that now is the time for them to do it - infact if they werent you can bet your life certain people would flip their line and ask why they weren't.

All new companies have to be aggresive in their marketing - its the old adage you need to speculate to accumulate and 3 are certainly doing that.

And as you say with Hutchison behind them - and their plan paying dividends with soaring customer numbers and revenue - who can blame them for turning up the heat a little more in the busiest period for mobile sales.

[new2three]

Let me start by saying it is over 3 years since I used PAYG so for me to pass a comment on something I have never used would not be justified on this forum.


In my opinion offering customers budget tarrifs is a good thing. To me and you £15. 00 a Month is a drop in the ocean but, to many people it is alot of money.

I would suggest that 3 are making mobile phones more accsesable to a wider market. I for one think it is a bold move.

I hope more mobile companies follow. Aggressive cometition is a good thing because it drives prices down and on the whole everyone benafits

[A1c]

Yep competition is fine. Lower prices are a very good thing but there is a finite limit to that. At some point every company needs to make a profit to survive and £5 a month contracts dont look likely to offer that prospect. Even £10/month seems unrealistic but is sustainable in the short term for a new entrant.

The fixed line market provides a good example of what happens when wannabe companies throw money at a mature market. Ionica, Scottish Power Telecom, Atlantic Telecom, all casualties who went bust because they just could'nt sustain the aquisition levels required to break even.

3 keep telling everyone about APRU but when they bill customers its at full tarriff and that where most of the APRU comes from. What is not considered is the very substantial cash backs that 3 provide via the dealer commission. Balance one against the other and the picture does'nt look too good! Gareth Jones of 3 reckons most customers dont use all of their inclusive talk time and the maximum revenue from content is 15% of the total so its going to a considerable time before the current auisitions actually make any money for 3, if ever as they can walk at the end of the 12 month contract when the 1/2 price offer finishes.

All in all, good for customers presently if it works well enough in their area but a very, very risky strategy for 3.

[Killahurts]

Absolute rubbish.

3s ARPU at roughly 45 a month equals an income of £540 a year - are you telling me that minus dealer commission and the cost of the phone that there is no profit margin in that.

Say its 250 quid - times it by over a million customers (probably more like 1.5m now) and the figures are not so small.

3 could always go the way of Orange and penalise customers £50 when they choose to be loyal and renew their contract with them on top of the price of the phone - boy thats gonna pull em in in droves!

[A1c]

Look behind the smoke and mirrors!

A customer pays hard cash of £60 - £150 for a handset plus line rental and inclusive calls and texts. That = a maximum of £12.50/month. Most customers according to 3 dont use minutes outwith their inclusive packages - so little additional revenue from that. Content = 15% of the stated APRU so £6.45/monthly or £77.40/year. So in summary the average contract customer pays between £137.40 and £227.40 from their own pocket.

Lets look at the other side of the coin - the stated APRU. £43/month allegedly. That is £516.00 so taking the highest figure above (what the customer actually shells out) £227.40 that leaves a difference of £288.60..... where does that come from? Some from termination charges for sure. Dealer subsidy (provided by 3) paid back to the customer as cash back (that does not affect the amount billed/APRU?)

We all know the old saying ' lies,lies and bloody statistics', and the key to the APRU figure is the fact that it is not provided directly by the network - so I have come to the conclusion that for as long as networks are employing cash back schemes (and this applies to all networks) then the published APRU stats are not a true indication of what customers spend on average in real terms. The bigger networks have more established customers so its likely thier stats will be more accurate as thier new aquisitions account for a smaller proportion than a new entrant employing similar tactics. Regardless of how you perm it this practice has brought into question the credibility of APRU's as it is no longer clear who is actually providing the revenue and who is in control of the spending process.

[Killahurts]

Oh we certainly all do know the saying lies lies and bloody statistics on here. Just look at the last few days!

Your first lie was to say that I have been banned from other websites - when I havent and you have failed to offer any evidence to this.

Your second lie was to deny that the big four have missed their 3g roll out dates time and time again - when YOUR own posts have provided all the proof of this that is necessary.

And as for bloody statistics - your example above is totally misleading.

You have:

1) taken the lowest possible tariff
2) assumed everyone is on a tariff - what about 3Pay customers!
3) assumed everyone is on a half price tariff for 12 months - what about people signed up on other deals (often with no half price period at all)
4) plucked a few figures out the air
5) come up with a pile of nonsense.

A bit like your statement the other day that 3 makes between 60 and 150 tops from their customers!

Nonsense. My tariff is 100 a month or 1200 a year.

To claim 3 only make 150 profit a year out of me is cloud cuckoo land!

[A1c]

It is obvious from the above that some osterich behaviour and child-like fingers in ears and bawling seems to be the level of response to some considered points.

Shame!

Anyway the number of customers paying £100/month on contract is very small... but that is common knowledge.

No point in going round the block trying to explain what lies behind the stats. Even huge governments can be fooled sometimes - remember WMD? Best not to go there I suspect!

[new2three]

How can an article written by a journalist or gleemed from other scources, be turned into negatives comments when it appears on this forum !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I love all the BIASED comments

[Looney]

When's "3sellerNW" coming back Killahurts ? Soon I bet !

[Killahurts]

So once again when challenged with the obvious 3GSU just ignores it.

His latest attempts to challenge 3s ARPU discredited - all he does is resort to personal abuse.

As to your comments Miffed how would I know when 3NWSeller is coming back.

If you are attempting to fit into to the title of this thread - Desperation!!! - by accusing me and him of being the same I would remind you of a couple of points:

1) I am quite happen for Admin on here to check my details against any other user name on here - I have only one user name unlike some...

2) I remember when I posted a thread asking the Admin on here to clapm down on multi user names held by individuals - for it was I that made that post - you rubbish my called for this to be done.

Why was that?

[A1c]

I wold be delighted if someone could explain how anyone can turn 12 months of £12.50 payments into an APRU of £43?

Actual customer spend about £150 + downloads ends up at £516. I must be missing something somwhere. When my bill is paid each month and I receive my cash back I'll have spent £59.00 in total..... not £43/month or anything like it!

Budget prices attract lower spenders generally, so the current business model appears far fetched - unless as I suggest someone can throw some light on it.

Any serious takers?

[Looney]

I'm confused :confused:

Forgive me - But does this "ARPU" thing that Killahurts mentions in every post - mean Three get more money out of each customer (on average ) than the other four ?
Fine - but you can't have it both ways - the above confirms that owning a Three Phone will cost you more than a phone on ANY OTHER NETWORK ! OFFICIAL !
Thanks for exposing this Killahurts

[Killahurts]

More misinformation and dodged questions from the above poster!

Your point - as i pointed out - was based upon assumptions something you have attacked today but still push ahead with yourself.

The ARPU quoted is an AVERAGE ARPU

It does not come from one of 3 many tariffs unlike you're trying to suggest.

Can you not work that out.

As i said before your assumption falls down for the following reasons.You have:

1) taken the lowest possible tariff
2) assumed everyone is on a tariff - what about 3Pay customers!
3) assumed everyone is on a half price tariff for 12 months - what about people signed up on other deals (often with no half price period at all)
4) plucked a few figures out the air
5) come up with a pile of nonsense.

So when you say you're missing something - yes you are completely!!!!

Your other false accusation was the fact that 3 make no more than £150 in revenue from any customer.

Again another rubbish lie.

I pay them £1200 a year - to say that just ten per cent of that is their profit margin is absolutely man and just discredit yours reputation even further.

Talking of discredited reputations - hello Miffed!

Again the knockers cant seem to work out the simplest of arguments.

3 makes more income from its users - not because it charges more for its services. It officially has the cheapest rates around.

The difference is that 3 users use the services available to them more.

Simple.

This is totally different to the scam that 3GSU exposed where the big four price fix.

Their users cant choose whether or not to pay over the odds - they are forced to by Voda Orange TMobile and O2.

3 users choose to use their phone services - and take advantage of the clear pricing structure 3 have on their phones. Not that Miffed knows - he doesnt have a 3 phone!

The result of overcharging by the big four leads to people like haveagoade leaving them as he detailed today.

[A1c]

The vast majority of 3 customers have signed up in the period when 1/2 price rental has been on offer - FACT! (Its been on-going now for some months). Only 15% of revenues come from content - FACT. Gareth Jones claims most folks dont call outwith their inclusive minutes. 3 genarally uses price to attact customers so its the price sensitive (mostly lower spenders) who will take up the offer.

Anyway Miffed has a very good point. You cannot indeed have your cake and eat it. If 3 has the highest ARPU then it figures that with a lower spend on content than the others they must be the most expensive for the voice and text services. Somebody is paying that £43/month average.... who is it? Maybe its all that interconection revenue? They make more than 2X what Vodafone do on peak calls presently.... but that would'nt account for it all could it?

[Killahurts]

I like the way you know exactly what tariffs people have signed up to.

It amazes me you can keep track of 600,000 people so well.

Apart from that bunker - here's your other hole you wont address.

The last six months has seen 3Pay hit the market. No half price deals at all.No free handsets. Just a minimum spend each month of well above 12.50 required.

How popular has 3 been - well you again cant buy a 7600 on it. They are sold out!

So your argument falls down.

Added to that the fact that the first 200,000 plus customers like me signed up on tariffs of 50 or 100 a month and your figures are even more dodgy.

Just like Miffed's argument - see my response to that above. Makes perfect sense...

But if you really think 3 are lying about their ARPU - i suggest you put it in those terms in your next post.

I'm sure their lawyers would love to hear from you...

[Looney]

As a matter of fact Killahurts - I currently have an e228 and an a925 both on active contracts - I have also had an e808y , a835 & an a920

And am pondering as to whether to get an LG ,e616v or an 7600 (well ... if three are stupid , sorry , succesfull enough to give away high specced phones for less than a night on the piss I'll buy them just to see what they're like )

So you think that people use their phones more just because the minutes are cheap ? ..... you sound like my wife!

[Killahurts]

Did i say minutes - I thought I said services???

[Killahurts]

But you're right on one thing as it makes perfect sense to use your phone more when you know your calls costs are cheaper.

I mean who's going to want to check their voicemail during the day on Orange when you pay up to 35p a min for it!

Whos going to call another mobile during the day on networks other than 3 when you can pay up to 40p a min for it.

I would have thought you could have grasped that when you dont have to worry about your bill as much you are more likely to use it!

[A1c]

APRU was fine until the back door cash handbacks destroyed the credibility of the measurement. You just cant give 1000's back money through dealers and keep billing as normal and expect anyone to believe only one side of the story.

This (as has been stated previously) is common to all of the networks presently although it will be far more significant with one who has been using this method to aquire greater numbers.

Accept the fact that ARPU is a worthless measurement when such significant amounts of claimed revenue is actually provided by the networks in the first place!

[Killahurts]

The fact you ignored my valid points again only goes to show that your argument was exposed as rubbish.

So you resort to option 2 and just change the subject...tut tut

[Killahurts]

As for Miffed...

You call yourself a professional 3 hater

The majority of your posts complain and whinge about 3.

You say things like "I would definately steer clear of Three as far as business is concerned (actually I would steer clear of three period!)" 24/7/04

And yet you took on a new contract phone in recent months - an NEC at that considering you have gone on record as slating NEC phones full stop - and now you are considering buying a new 3 phone.

Why if 3 are in your opinion so crap.

When people dont like products - they normally turn their backs on them and move on.

Why don't you?

[18736]

When's "3sellerNW" coming back Killahurts ? Soon I bet !

I'm here!

(fanfare!)

Hi Killahurts.

I thought I'd stop by and even out the odds a bit, seeing as everyone is trying to bully my mate Killahurts again.

Hmmm... Do you guys EVER get fed up with slating a product you don't actually use and rely on?

3GSU. You keep going on about how high ARPU is possible when "massive" dealer commissions are to be had, plus the silly cashback deals.

WRONG.

The cashback deals are FINANCED OUT OF THE DEALER COMMISSION. Certain high street multiples who historically used this principle WENT BUST because the did not make ANY money!

Not EVERY dealer uses cashback. A lot only support the deal that 3 give them officially, ie 3 months.

The rest use the cash offer (by redemption) as a carrot to get people into their store. That's it! The terms and conditions for redemption are usually quite precise. Let's face it, WHO wants to GIVE money away if they can avoid it? The mulitples are no exception. They rely on you, the customer, forgetting to send your cashback deal in! That then makes the high street deal EXACTLY the same as any other in the market, subject to the service (or perhaps, lack of it) you may receive from some multiples (yes I am biased!)

Also 3GSU, you make out that EVERYONE is one a 12 months cashback deal. They AREN'T!!!!!!!

This bickering is so tiring and repetitive... :confused:

[Looney]

And yet you took on a new contract phone in recent months - an NEC at that considering you have gone on record as slating NEC phones full stop - and now you are considering buying a new 3 phone.

Why if 3 are in your opinion so crap.


Why don't you?


Actually , as usual , you have your facts wrong there Killahurts - it's like you find a few of the facts out and make the rest up to suit your argument (nothing new there then!)
I Had an e228 GIVEN to me as the bloke who bought it despised it ! - and it now has the contract sim from my a925 in it , the a925 has the sim from my a920 which I sold on ebay
I got the a925 because I wanted a symbian handset , and none of the other networks are stupid enough to give them away - The years line rental comes to less than a sim free p900 would have done - getting it unlocked & onto a proper network as soon as poss thanks !

[Killahurts]

Oh i know you were handed the phone - I researched your quotes very carefully as you can tell from the fact you are the man that said you would "steer clear of three period."

And yet your actions show you're doing anything but that with you now talking of taking on yet another 3 phone.

The last handset you got is an NEC - which we all know you slated without any experience of it - and yet when you used it admitted it was an alright phone.

By the very fact you cant seem to leave 3 - no matter how much you hate them - you be endorsing their very services by default if you dont stick to your word, get your phones unlocked, and get the hell out of 3UK asap.

[Killahurts]

Oh i know you were handed the phone - I researched your quotes very carefully as you can tell from the fact you are the man that said you would "steer clear of three period."

And yet your actions show you're doing anything but that with you now talking of taking on yet another 3 phone.

The last handset you got is an NEC - which we all know you slated without any experience of it - and yet when you used it admitted it was an alright phone.

By the very fact you cant seem to leave 3 - no matter how much you hate them - youll be endorsing their very services by default if you dont stick to your word, get your phones unlocked, and get the hell out of 3UK asap.

[hecatae]

I would be delighted if someone could explain how anyone can turn 12 months of £12.50 payments into an APRU of £43?



I would be delighted if you could tell me which priceplan only costs £12.50?
Before you even start about the half price for 12 month deals, consider this, 3 dont give 12 months halfprice line rental, the dealers do, and they only do it after a certain amount of time, so therefore 3 Uk are living off the interest, to 3 the books work out that the customer is paying £25 a month, the fact that the comission they paid the dealer is paying off half the line rental does not even come into the equation.

[18736]

I would be delighted if you could tell me which priceplan only costs £12.50?
Before you even start about the half price for 12 month deals, consider this, 3 dont give 12 months halfprice line rental, the dealers do, and they only do it after a certain amount of time, so therefore 3 Uk are living off the interest, to 3 the books work out that the customer is paying £25 a month, the fact that the comission they paid the dealer is paying off half the line rental does not even come into the equation.

Thanks hecatae! Well put. By the way, 3 don't live off the interest, because they receive normal tariff price from the customer. It's certain dealers giving away their commission which effectively frops the line renatl cost to ther customer. The customer's bill from 3 is exactly the same a mount as a customer who is not on a cashback deal.

It is also worth mentioning that not everyone goes on VT500. A lot of people are on higher tariffs! In fact, since talk and text came out I haven't sold one VT500.

And before 3GSU starts on again about a 7600 for £60 a year line rental - I wouldn't pay 60p for that phone anyway. Never sold one. Never wanted to! Glad I didn't. It isn't even a proper 3G phone.

[Killahurts]

Hecatae - 3GSU knows what you said is true

He had a real ear bashing about his misinformation on this very issue on another board!

But we all know facts dont get in the way of his spreading mischievous misinformation about 3.

His argument is full of holes - not just for the reason you mentioned, but all the others I listed.

He's never able to answer any points that are raised and just resorts to personal attacks.

But keep up the good word of highlighting his misinformation - this board should offer people the opportunity to make an informed choice about which network meets their needs.

Instead 3GSU trys to distort the good experiences of many 3UK users with his biased rantings...

[JB's Best Mate]

I did start to read this thread but sort of gave up half way through when it all got a bit personal so forgive me if I missed the point ?

Three quote a higher ARPU than all the other networks , 3GSU accuses 3 of cooking the books - so far I think that is the main story line here ?

Basically all networks quote ARPU figures as they are used throughout the industry as a solid indicator of revenue gained from customers but I think we all know that :confused:

My point is this , why assume that it is only 3 that use positive ARPU figures I bet all the networks have their own way of helping their figures but 3GSU does not seem to think this is true , he constantly tries to do little calculations based on one set figures when 3 are dealing with over 1 million customers all with diferent spending patterns - hence average.

3 are being aggresive towards customer aquisiton but is'nt that a good thing for all, to call it desperate is niave to say the least.

Lets just enjoy the benefits and stop trying to create customer spend models from 1 set of figures it just does not work !

Next set of figures will be released in March 2005 , expect to see 3UK well over 2 million customers by then :p

[Killahurts]

Thats just my point - his posts are misinformation

Full of spin

Its nothing personal when I say that - Im just highlighting that what he posts as fact is ACTUALLY full of holes.

Everyone thats posted can see that apart from 3GSU and Miffed.

Why?

[Killahurts]

Thats just my point - his posts are misinformation

Full of spin

Its nothing personal when I say that - Im just highlighting that what he posts as fact is ACTUALLY full of holes.

Everyone thats posted can see that apart from 3GSU and Miffed.

Why is that?

[A1c]

Leaving out all of the personal nonsense lets try and get to the bottom of this APRU discussion (and I have already stated it affects ALL networks - but not to the same degree).

1. The dealer gets a commission and decides to split it with the customer. It must be heafty as CPW's on-line sunsiduary can return no less than £255.12 on a 12 month contract. They also fund free BT, accessories and delivery out of their megre income! They must have nothing left for themselves... very thoughtful and philanthropic of them! NOT! (The big boys get far better deals than independents - Fact!)

2. 3 UK know exactly what multiples do and will have unwritten agreements in terms of what they will do to increase sales. 3 provide the incentive after all and will have some say in how their product is marketed.

3. CPW and the rest dont take chances on customers forgetting to claim their cash back. They all now provide documentation with handsets to remind customers of their requirements to obtain what they signed up to. Customers are hardly likely to 'forget' about cash backs that amount to as much as £255.12 and the norm is £112.50.

4. The cash back schemes severely dent the credibility of APRU stats as they assume that all the monies billed are customer payments for services. They clearly are not. Up to 50% of billed amounts are pre-paid to the dealer as subsidies which are subsequently paid back to the customer. Regardless of who is doing it - its smoke and mirrors at its best and I take my hat off to whoever thought up this scheme. It's fiendishly clever - its customer revenue billed by networks but pre-paid to a third party (who might well make a few bob in interest) who refunds it! You would need to be mega dense not to see what is happening!

5. My suspision is that the bosses in HK have told the UK to clear the shelves at all costs and get the number up before the incumbents make their 3G move. It also makes perfect sense to steal a march on Stelios and the more competitive actions of BT Mobile and Tesco who have been making headway at the bottom of the market.

6. Whatever way you look at it its good for customers but I'm hoping that the falling prices dont lead to a drop in standards. Other operators would do well to continue with their prudent commercial activity in terms of 3G and make sure the same horrors dont befall them as happened to the first in the market. Having seen what a mess can be made it would be criminal of others to repeat it. The reward for making such catastophic errors of judgement would be supplying equipment to folks free of charge and having to put up with the kind of returns that the cash back schemes produce now for 3.

BTW: Talk and Text 600/900 is 12 months 1/2 price all over the place right now!

[new2three]

Just wondering which phone company / lobby group 3G ScottishUser works for

[A1c]

Re the above - that strategy has been tried before and led nowhere. Its utter mischief making (and generally a response from those with nothing to add to the intellectual disucssion).

When you are out of your depth it does nothing to try to label others to attempt to discredit valid opinions.

BTW - I've been a 3 customer since June 2003 and have had 2 handsets and 2 tarriffs... so i think I qualify as having sufficient experience!

[Killahurts]

3GSU admitted again in recent days - when I pushed him - that he has worked in a personnel capacity for mobile companies other than 3 that saw him receive a salary.

Read into that what you will.

He holds no current monthly fee paying tariff with 3 and hasnt for many many months now.

Hope that answers your questions

[A1c]

More asumptions..... I have a valid current Talk & Text tarriff - remember!

Oh and remember the contract cleaner who works at Vodafone?.... I did a few days (sub-contract - temporary) personnel work for a couple of telcos..... yeah that makes me a telco insider.... absolute tripe!

Change the record!

[new2three]

Whoops !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Only wanted to know if you could offer me a good upgrade deal on my BT mobile.


Guess not eh


Anyway better be careful might be outta my depth

[A1c]

What a silly response.... not entirely unexpected though!

Go look for a dealer if you want upgrade advice. You might also like to take note that another contributer who made the same silly acqusation (and has done so for ages boring everyone to death) has had a thread locked for attempting to pusue the same worthless agenda lately. It might be an idea to check out what has been said/tried before and how it has been dealt with before posting similarly worthless speculative comments.

[JB's Best Mate]

What a silly response.... not entirely unexpected though!

Go look for a dealer if you want upgrade advice. You might also like to take note that another contributer who made the same silly acqusation (and has done so for ages boring everyone to death) has had a thread locked for attempting to pusue the same worthless agenda lately. It might be an idea to check out what has been said/tried before and how it has been dealt with before posting similarly worthless speculative comments.

Thimk this thread should be closed off for the same reason , got v. petty and still no real purpose behind it. :(