View Full Version : Charging for Incomplete/Failed Dowloads
Check you 3 bill carefully. It appears that they charge when they commence a streaming download even if it is not successful! Crazy when we have had download verification for donky's years and they know exactly when a complete file has been received.
Mumbai read the script as usual.... then decided to raise a query and asked that I check for credit with them in 4-5 days! I suspect this is one of the reasons why 3 are not getting much in the way of take-up for the services if this is the best they can manage!
Pityful both in terms of prouct reliability, network information and customer service - just not good enough!
jonat8
24-08-2004, 09:14 AM
Indeed they do but I believe that you have 20 minutes to re-download the file in case this happens. Networks aren't perfect, sometimes I get downloads that fail on the Internet.
Give the guys a break! At least they are aware this can happen and give you some time to re-download and try and get a complete file.
That does'nt help if you decide to give up and still get charged!
The file download verification should take care of this - so no excuses! (Once a complete file has downloaded the last packet includes a check/response from the receiving handset to confirm receipt- only then should a charge be raised to a customer).
jonat8
24-08-2004, 09:44 AM
That does make sense and obviously that is in place in some cases on the Internet (like iTunes downloads for instance, you can't re-download the file once you have a complete file).
But when have 3 ever created a policy that makes sense! :D
Seriously though, the redownloading within 20 minutes policy is OK as an interim measure as long as the punters are aware that if their download fails, they can retry it for free.
J.
Originally posted by 3GScottishUser
The file download verification should take care of this - so no excuses! (Once a complete file has downloaded the last packet includes a check/response from the receiving handset to confirm receipt- only then should a charge be raised to a customer).
Um, and how do you do that in HTTP?
3's solution is fair and honest.
Dave
"Seriously though, the redownloading within 20 minutes policy is OK as an interim measure as long as the punters are aware that if their download fails, they can retry it for free. "
I disagree 100%! The technology for file transfer confirmation is standard proven IT data comms protocols that have been in place for years! Why should anyone have to pay for somethig that has not been received? A bit like a shop asking you to pay for goods that they had'nt delivered. The multiple attempts are fine - they need to adjust the billing to only charge for completed verified downloads - not too much to expect eh?
Paying for incomplete/failed downloads is 'fair and honest'? That's very reassuring and will inspire confidence....I don't think!
Originally posted by 3GScottishUser
Paying for incomplete/failed downloads is 'fair and honest'? That's very reassuring and will inspire confidence....I don't think!
I disagree. Once you've clicked the download button you've completed the Contract of Sale. You now have 20 minutes in which to acquire the file.
If you change your mind - tough! There are no refunds on media or software just because you change your mind!
Dave
"Once you've clicked the download button you've completed the Contract of Sale. You now have 20 minutes in which to acquire the file. "
Which is fine if you have the time and can mange to do it!
BTW: Its nothing to do with HTML..... Quickplay and Video are files! All files including HTML have packet control and confirmation protocols that communicate progress/failure/success between the server and the recipiant who requests data.
jonat8
24-08-2004, 11:01 AM
Anyway, if the account were charged once a complete download has been done, what would happen if the person has insufficient credit available to download the content? If the person has a complete download saved to their phone and the system realises there isn't enough credit to pay for it then how can it order the phone to delete the transferred file, without some sort of firmware update?
A way around this would be to allow the file to be downloaded and then try and charge the account. If the charge is processed OK then download a license file to the phone, but is that even possible using MP4? Probably not without wrapping the files in some sort of DRM container, which the phones would have to be upgraded to play...
Originally posted by 3GScottishUser
BTW: Its nothing to do with HTML
No-one mentioned HTML. Unless you don't know the difference between HTML and HTTP...
Dave
That''s packet based also and like the rest has a protocol to cover data transfer/integrity!
"Anyway, if the account were charged once a complete download has been done, what would happen if the person has insufficient credit available to download the content?"
Well its easy enough for them to prevent voice calling when credit is insufficient..... data should be no different.... very easy to verify if accounts are credit worthy when a request is made to purchace.
jonat8
24-08-2004, 11:13 AM
Ah so it should work in the same was as credit card authorisations, I think I'm with you.
- Customer requests content.
- Billing system checks for sufficient credit and places a hold on it.
- File transferred to phone.
- On successful transfer of file, billing system debits the account.
- If no successful download in xx minutes, release hold on credit.
I know lots of online stores put their authorisation request for funds from your C/C before processing your order, this puts a hold on the funds so they can't be accessed by the cardholder. Once the item is ready to ship then they request the account be debited.
Originally posted by 3GScottishUser
That''s packet based also and like the rest has a protocol to cover data transfer/integrity!
Indeed, as it sits on top of TCP/IP.
But HTTP has no facility to check for or guarantee the delivery of an entire file - all that is logged is the request.
3 could undertake a massive software engineering project to make it possible to track every packet and every connection, rather than just a simple log, but it's not worth the effort - they just give you a 20 minute window to do the download instead.
Your argument that you could change your mind is spurious - the answer is "tough".
Your argument that you might not be able to do it in 20 minutes, though unlikely, would mean a fault, in which case report it to CS and get a refund.
In other words, you're just manufacturing problems to try to talk-down 3.
(Incidentally, every other network charges for content downloads begun, not completed too)
Dave
bluetide
24-08-2004, 04:26 PM
O2 has a very good dowload service if you download someting u are charged imediately but anything you download is stored in a my files section and available to download free withing 24 hours of the purchase
Transmission Control Protocol verifies downloads - therefore there is NO excuse for charging for incomplete/failed transfers. Simple data comms stuff really and no major revision required. It's a sad case of sloppy charging policy. Indefensible.
"Incidentally, every other network charges for content downloads begun, not completed too"
Not true! As I have not been charged for incomplete/failed games dowloads by others.
bluetide
24-08-2004, 10:07 PM
o 2 charge once u reach the downlod page but they give u 24 hours to retry
Originally posted by 3GScottishUser
Transmission Control Protocol verifies downloads
Right, it's a shame that you know as much about networking as you know about 3G.
TCP *doesn't* verify downloads. TCP has no *concept* of a download. TCP controls the sending a resending of packets. What's in those packets, or what they make up, is outside of the scope of TCP.
Dave
romas
27-08-2004, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by dpm
Right, it's a shame that you know as much about networking as you know about 3G.
TCP *doesn't* verify downloads. TCP has no *concept* of a download. TCP controls the sending a resending of packets. What's in those packets, or what they make up, is outside of the scope of TCP.
Dave
TCP may not be able to determine the contents of the packet it's transmitting, but it does confirm whether the packet made it to its destination. Surely if the download is incomplete then some of the packets will not have reached their destination and the machine sending the data will be aware of that, would therefore be in a position to keep a record of that, and consequently not bill you for it?
As far as reporting a fault to CS about the imcomplete download - would anyone really bother bearing in mind how useless they are?! If sorting out major issues (such as billing) can take months and tens of phonecalls, what chance is there of getting your refund on a 50p download??
Andy Cripps
27-08-2004, 12:54 PM
"As far as reporting a fault to CS about the imcomplete download - would anyone really bother bearing in mind how useless they are?! If sorting out major issues (such as billing) can take months and tens of phonecalls, what chance is there of getting your refund on a 50p download??"
If it wasn't so true it would be funny! :rolleyes: :D
Delighted to see that at least someone else knows the purpose of TCP and has highlighted the fact that it does provide a verification re received data integrity.... the rest as explained above by romas is self-explanitory!
Gunner
27-08-2004, 04:22 PM
You can't (afaik) verify a download is complete with TCP - yes, TCP will resend data packets that are lost in transmission, but there is no system for confirming the download is complete.
The only thing Three can do is have a "download period" where once one client pays for a download, it has access to the download for a set period of time (as is already the case, though the period could probably do with being extended).
The problem with post-download-pay is that it would almost always be possible to download the complete file and then either disconnect or modify the software so that billing does not take place.
However, downloads shouldn't be failing anyway...
Spoonfed
27-08-2004, 04:54 PM
3 should not treat customers with a billing issue like muppets and underline their network failings by ALMOST accusing them of fraud!
They billed me for their failings twice - they refused to credit the charges - I have not and will not pay for content again.
Gunner
27-08-2004, 09:08 PM
Totally, that's dire. They should have a dedicated number really for dealing with problems and questions regarding the 3G content. If they can't verify that downloads have completed, they should refund on request.
"You can't (afaik) verify a download is complete with TCP - yes, TCP will resend data packets that are lost in transmission, but there is no system for confirming the download is complete."
Indeed - so if the download is complete - no further resends are required. TCP verifies data transimssion and reception - so if the resends fail the file is obviously incomplete and only when the Transmission control protocol reports delivery and confirmation of all the data should a charge be made to the customer.
It's basic Data Communications stuff this and the protocols to verify accurate delivery have been around for some decades so mobile operators have no excuses with this issue.
Gunner
28-08-2004, 01:51 AM
That's not strictly true, http transfer is by no means perfect.
The server can't just 'detect' that the transfer of the file has been completed. The start of the request is noted, but not the end. If you check the http logs on any webserver you will see each request, but no way of getting confirmation when that request completes.
Three would have to develop their own system for verifying downloads are complete, or refund on request.
"Three would have to develop their own system for verifying downloads are complete, or refund on request."
Well I don't think that is too much to ask for as we have established they can accurately determine when the process does not deliver the required data,
It would be much more efficient for them not to charge until a download is verified... saves time dealing with complaints etc. I don't think I'm expecting anything particularly unusual... just want charged for downloads that I get reliably. If they can't do that as some seem to suggest maybe folks should think twice before hitting the download key.
Gunner
28-08-2004, 03:02 PM
Indeed, it is possible, and if their attempt at 3G services was anything more than half-hearted it'd probably have been programmed from day 1.
Given their lack of commitment to customer service, it would be an extremely worthwhile feature.
ChemicalBrother
30-08-2004, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by dpm
Your argument that you might not be able to do it in 20 minutes, though unlikely, would mean a fault, in which case report it to CS and get a refund.
A refund's not likely to happen if my experience is to go by. I was on the 'phone to them for half an hour arguing the toss. In the end I just admitted defeat.
I didn't even get a failed download - my download didn't even get that far! All I got was a "page not found" type message so I couldn't even re-attempt it (the link was bad it wasn't a problem with my phone or reception - the India guy failed to understand that).
ChemicalBrother
30-08-2004, 11:08 AM
Originally posted by Andy Cripps
"As far as reporting a fault to CS about the imcomplete download - would anyone really bother bearing in mind how useless they are?! If sorting out major issues (such as billing) can take months and tens of phonecalls, what chance is there of getting your refund on a 50p download??"
If it wasn't so true it would be funny! :rolleyes: :D
I was on the 'phone for 30 minutes over such a clip (and such a failed download) and it just really wasn't worth it. They made me feel like I was trying it on - for 50p! From my memory it went something like this:
3 CS: "Sir, our computer tells us you ordered the video, so you ordered it"
Me: "But I didn't watch it - I didn't get a chance as the link was missing. It was impossible for me to view or even download this video"
3 CS: "But our computers say you ordered it so you watched it, so we charged you for it"
Me: "Yes, I ordered it - that's not in despute. I wasn't able to download or view it though - that's the problem. The link was missing and I got a 'page not found' error. Surely your computer can tell you that!"
This went on for 20-30 minutes (I was on the phone for other reasons and to other CS staff as well that particular eveing). In the end I just gave up (obviously what they want and not right but that guy was getting paid (even if it were a pittance) for his time with me - I'd just done 30 minutes "work" and was still down 50p! Also, I've got so much free stuff from Three that I let 'em off (I know not the point!) :(
Spikeman
21-09-2004, 05:49 AM
One point to note is that non-charging for incomplete DL could lead to service abuse as users can intentionally terminate their download just before completion to avoid charges. A case in point would be video streaming. From an operator's standpoint, time-based unlimited re-try is a much better option provided the content is not updated realtime.