O2 3G When?

[astra46]

Im currently on 3 and find that i get a good reception. I notice however that the phone often roams onto O2. I get excellent reception with O2 far better than my Orange phone. the phone seems to work in more places than Orange.

When is O2 3G coming? As i might go onto a 3 contract for a year, then see what O2 have to offer then.

[3G-Londoner]

I am currently testing O2 3G and it looks doubful it will be launched for a while yet. The network needs a lot of improvement before users will accept it! I would guess they will launch some time mid next year but dont quote me on that :)

[astra46]

Shame its a while off, as i find O2 2g very good ,and i get better reception with O2 than with Orange.

[Killahurts]

02 3g when???

A very good question

Not only are 02 dragging their feet terribly on this issue but as you can see from this report they are actually lobbying OFCOM to remove the requirement of 80% 3g by 2007

Doesnt sound positive....

Ofcom eyes 3G licence relaxation

November 24 2004

by Reuters



Set to be more flexible about growth of 3G networks...

Britain might relax rules about the speed at which mobile phone operators have to build out third-generation (3G) networks as part of a radical overhaul meant to throw open the highly regulated market for radio frequencies.




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Regulator Ofcom said on Tuesday it would address industry concerns about onerous 3G network regulations in a consultation document planned for mid-December as part of its revamp of 100-year-old regulations governing the country's radio frequency spectrum.


An Ofcom spokesman said: "It's one of a number of issues we're discussing with stakeholders on a confidential basis at the moment. All of these will be aired in the document in mid-December."

Mobile phone operators such as mmO2, which has almost 14 million customers in Britain, have urged Ofcom to be more flexible about rules that demand that high-speed 3G networks cover 80 per cent of the population by the end of 2007.

3, mmO2, Orange, T-Mobile and Vodafone spent a total of £22.5bn on 3G network licences in 2000. But software glitches and handset delays have prevented all but Vodafone and 3 from selling 3G phones in the UK to date.

Any move by Ofcom to scrap initial targets for network rollouts comes as the regulator is suggesting easing other regulatory curbs on how spectrum is bought, sold and used to encourage innovation and competition.

Ofcom in August called a consultation on allowing companies to buy and sell spectrum and in September called a second consultation on removing "unnecessary" restrictions on licensees to allow them to change how they use their spectrum -- without regulatory interference.

In its Strategic Review of Spectrum Management, which partly encompasses these two issues, Ofcom said on Tuesday it wanted to hand control of 71.5 per cent of the radio spectrum to the market by 2010. The industry has to respond by 15 February, 2005.

"This is a huge move away from command and control to market forces mechanisms," a spokesman said, adding that the industry needed to "sit up and take notice" so that it could benefit from the newly liberalised market.

Ofcom hopes to secure some spectrum trading and market liberalisation for the likes of business radio and fixed wireless licence holders by the end of the year.

Not all spectrum control will be handed over. Suggested exemptions are spectrum controlled internationally, such as for satellite communications, and spectrum where international roaming is essential, such as for the maritime or aeronautical industries. This will account for 21.6 per cent of the market.

But the plan is to allow the market to decide the best use for new spectrum allocations, give licence holders the confidence to plan for the future and increase the amount of licence-exempt spectrum, allowing businesses to develop new technologies and services without the need for a licence.

About seven per cent of the market is expected to be licence-excepted by 2010. Currently, mobile phone operators offering local Wi-Fi high-speed wireless Internet connections in places such as coffee shops and airport lounges need no licence in the UK.

[Gunner]

I'm not sure whether the more recent move to take on i-mode will change O2's attitude - time will tell I suppose.

However, I can see why they might be struggling. Silly sods have left it very late, and residents concerns about mobile phone masts is as high as ever. Even if they did have all the money and equipment to hand, it could take them until beyond 2007 to get enough planning permission!

I think in O2's case they had to buy the licence to prevent being left behind. Now, however, with more, better technologies appearing, and the opening up of the UK's wireless spectrum, they're doing what they can to keep their options open.

Not a great sign for 3G I agree.

[Killahurts]

Couldnt agree more with you Absolutely

I mean when a new starter like 3 can hit 80% 3g coverage in 18 months from a standing start there is absolutely no reason why a long standing company like 02 couldnt have done the same.

they gambled on a slow roll out and have now realised they have made a bad mistake - no wonder they are lobbying for this extension.

But the fact that by doing so they are admitting they couldnt hit 80% in 4 years is an absolute disgrace

[simax]

3 are at 80% now? I thought it was mid 70's tops.

Simon

[simonlant]

I have a feeling that o2 should/might sack 3g and move in on some new technology
EDGE perhaps??

[Killahurts]

Simax - 3 announced some days ago that they were the first network to hit 80% coverage which as the new boy in the mobile industry really does put 02 to shame...

[a_ukboy]

I have also heard from a Three CS advisor (Glasgow not India) but don't quote me on this one that Three UK are planning to stop using o2 as a back up network by begining of 2007, i was told that if network roll out goes according to plan that Three UK should have 97% UK coverage by population, making their network coverage almost as good as the current 2g networks!

[simax]

I know from a Three training day earlier in the summer, that 2 things are going to happen....

1) Where Three's 3G coverage is at a sustainable level over a broad area, they will switch off individual 2G (O2) sites in those areas, starting June 2005. (Now - how that's going to work is anyones guess)

2) Three UK's commercial national roaming agreement with O2 ceases at 23:59 on 31st December 2006 (according to OFCOM), at which point, 3 is said to be able to cover 97% population. Question is - What about the 2.7% that will still be stuck with 2G coverage when the cutoff period happens? Will they be able to cancel their contracts?

By 31/12/06, I predict coverage on the 3G networks to be as follows:

Three - 98%
Orange - 98%
Vodafone - 96%
O2 - 92%
T-Mobile - 90%

Let's come back in 2 years and check the results! ;)

Simon

[Killahurts]

Well if this is indeed correct - which remains to be seen - Three wont be the only onces switching off 2g networks especially by the end of 2006.

Voda are already doing that in Japan and why wouldnt they?

3g offers costs savings so it makes sense.

And if 3 dont have to pay o2 to provide back up it will just help make the business more profitable.

It was always going to be a matter of if not when this happened.

As for 02 getting 92% coverage by end of 2006 I feel you are being v optimistic.

They are already lobbying the authorities hard to extend the deadline for reachin 80% 3g coverage by 2007 so i doubt very much they will hit 92% by the end of 2006.

Otherwise they would be better spending their resources on getting 3g cells rolled out rather than on whingeing lobbyists...

[Gunner]

I doubt anyone will be switching off their 2G networks by the end of 2006 - it'll be more like 2010 surely. The networks will have to be extremely careful not to put people at a disadvantage by disconnecting their trusty 2G handsets too early. I don't see why there would be any rush.

Voda Japan have only stopped selling 2G handsets - the majority (vast majority!) of their subscribers are on 2G and will be for some time. They haven't started switching off their 2G network.

I doubt any of the networks will have over 95% coverage by the end of 2006, as after 80% it gets really expensive to cover what's left. Some areas probably wont be upgraded until the GSM equipment reaches the end of its natural life.

[A1c]

I still know folks who are happy with Philips Fizz handsets and the like. They dont use them often and carry them for emergencies mainly. Those folks will hold onto them for some time to come I dare say.

Latest stats suggest that teens change handsets every 11 months on average! Lets see how 3 make a profiit out of that kind of churn with the subsidy levels on ThreePay! Phones are a fashion accessory now and it does'nt look likely that will change in the near future.

[Killahurts]

3GSU says: "Latest stats suggest that teens change handsets every 11 months on average!"

Well first of all 11 months is basically the same length as your average contract phone so so what

And secondly do you not think that the phone companies know this?

Do you think your the only person with this data?

In fact do you not think they carry out their own private research and base their pricing on it?

You are being niaive in the extreme....

[A1c]

Oh yeah..... buy a handset for £160, give the dealer £15 for punting it, advertise it at about 15% of the cost another £25 per customer.... total = £200.

Kid buys £15 top-up each month for 11 months ..... = £165 (15% of which goes to vendors).

Result - Loss of £55 approx.

Sound business! Very sustainable! (Best case scenario..... many unlock and leave 3 and many others dont wait 11 months to leave it).

[3G_its_the_dogs]

Kids spend £15 top up then start downloading videos so get £10 add on = £25 3uk make profit , yipee or..........................

Kid tells friends they steal dads credit card to access Top Shelf and Dad gets hit for big card bill , everybody lives happily ever after....................

[A1c]

No - I doubt it..... kids I know dont download from 3 because they know its expensive and dodgy. They try it then return to their PC's where they can get the same stuff for free through Kazza etc.

This whole download myth is a red herring. Most newer 3 handsets have only quickplay (ThreePay ones) so £1.50 for a crap stuttering music video wont do anything to improve 3's fortunes.

[JB's Best Mate]

Most newer 3 handsets have only quickplay (ThreePay ones) so £1.50 for a crap stuttering music video wont do anything to improve 3's fortunes.

Thats what happens when you invest in a C975 with 2mb memory , take it you have been downloading 3 content on your new toy :cool:

[Killahurts]

More nonsense from 3GSU!

The man who attacked 3 Pay - the award winning value for money Pay as You Go scheme from 3 - for the fact that people have to top up monthly is now saying they cant make any money on it.

But lets think about that for a moment.

The very thing he has attacked 3 Pay for - ie the fact people have to top up on a monthly basis IS the very reason why 3 Pay is gonna be more profitable for the average active customer than any other PAYG user on another network.

Take my mum for instance - lovely woman ha - and brags to me that she never uses her Orange phone and it costs her about £50 a year.

How much do you think Orange have made out of that phone - when she get shops around to get a good deal - and bearing in mind we know Orange pay up to the best part of £190 in commission from their pre pay handsets.

Work that one out Orange stand to lose almost £300 a year on my mum when you take into account the cost of the handset.

Thats the beauty of 3Pay for 3 - they have a regular income. Voda Orange O2 and TMobile dont have that luxury.

And thats the problem with 3GSU he wants to have it both ways - he wants to attack 3 for requiring PAYG customers for making a regular top up - but then says that despite being the only PAYG scheme to require such they cant make any money.

He wants his cake and he wants to eat it.

Hypocrite!

For 3 Pay customers they get the cheapest calls around!

So as you say it "Sound business! Very sustainable!" unlike many other PAYG offerings.

As for you comment about "most kids you know think 3 downloads are too expensive"

How many is that - 3, 10, 20?

Like 0.0000000000001% of the 3Pay customers.

Im afraid you cant extrapolate on such a small sample

But fact has never got in the way of this full time 3 knocker now has it...

[Gunner]

"Thats the beauty of 3Pay for 3 - they have a regular income. Voda Orange O2 and TMobile dont have that luxury."

That's consumer friendly :S I thought you were all about the little guy? The other networks have been operating their PAYG services without the 30 day restrictions for a pretty long time now so they're obviously sustainable.

[A1c]

"Orange pay up to the best part of £190 in commission from their pre pay handsets."

Ha Ha Ha..... what a joke! Commission on PrePay is minimal, just a 15-20% margin on handset sales and the same on top-up's! Same for every network and always has been. Substantial commissions are only made from contract sales.

Many customers quite like having a phone for emergency use and if they bear the trade cost of their handset (which most do on pre-pay); why should'nt they? Pre-Pay offers customers the option of paying for a handset and paying as you go for only the service you use - no commitment or recurring outlay and for low users that is attractive. ThreePay is a commitment based pre-pay service that is marketed as PAYG but it's not really because you have to pay a minimum fee each month just to have the service. Result, lots of those who have bought highly subsidised handsets are now taking steps to release themselves from mandatory top-up periods. The inflexibilty of ThreePay will make it an easy target for 'solutions providers' for some time ahead.

[solo12002]

Once again posts start to become a slaging match. I agree that o2 have looked like fools in all of this.

As one of the older networks they should of had their 3g up and running long before now, in fact the whole thing is a mess.

I understood at the start that 3g were using O2 2g network and this is correct, however for some reason in Ireland they have signed up to use Vodafones 02 network, I wonder what the reason was they din't stick with 02, even for roaming purposes?

As for O2 was there not an agreement signed that T-Mobile and 02 would share their 3g network, did I not see this some were at granting of 3g licence?

Even T-Mobile cant get their act together, so far they have delayed lunch of 3g apart from a Data Card.

Vodafone and Orange have lunched, but not in a big way, most of their users Im sure dont even know its up and running, you have to pick a phone before you find their call charges and plans.

Despite the poor service from Three, you have to admit, no one can beat the fact that they started with nothing, unlike the other networks, they now cover 80% unlike the other networks and none of the other networks will even match their prices, you dont have to beat them matching them would be nice.

Shame Three cant move call centres bank to Uk, it would inprove their support no end.

[A1c]

Which came out first....Betamax or VHS?

Betamax was first to market and the loser in the long run (despite its better spec).

I suspect the same criteria applies to mobile technology and those who are hedging and being cautious may loose the odd battle but may still win the war! There is currently nothing compelling in terms of consumer applications for 3G right now. Take out the artifical price advantage that 3UK provide and what can be said that's better?

I hope 3G brings benefits to all but I still think it's niche has still to be discovered. In the meantime the increased competition is welcome and should benefit consumers in the long term.

BTW: The roaming agreement in Ireland with Vodafone was won on price. It was put out to competitive tender by Hutchison 3 Ireland.

[Killahurts]

3GSU when you deny Orange pay upi to 190 commission for pay as you go you are talking nonsense!

I took the figure from the dealers commission handbook.

Its there in print. Man you talk nonsense!!!

So please go check the handbook that you saw too and come and withdraw your ridiculous unfounded comment!

And as for Absolutelys comments I am for the consumer - always have been as my post have proved. Im all for 3Pay as its the cheapest deal around for PAYG customers - and thats OFFICIAL!!!

But for some reason - cant think why - you missed my point that the 3 knockers want it both ways.

They knock 3Pay for requiring a regular payment and then when they get bored with that they start threads like this saying 3 Pay cant make any money.

Yet any fool - apart from 3GSU - can see that its bound to bring in more regular income than any other PAYG service because of the need for regular top ups.

Thats why my mums Orange PAYG will cost Orange around £300 a year to have her as an active customer when you add in commission, cost of handset, admin fees for looing after her account and all she spends is £50 a year.

Yet we never see any posts from 3GSU about how much Oraneg must lose on PAYG customers - WHY IS THAT?

[Killahurts]

And just to show how 3GSU posts nonsense as FACT.

How he spouts lies in his efforts to knock 3.

Just take a look at this comment when he denied my claim that Orange pays up to 190 in commission for Pay As You Go phones:

"Ha Ha Ha..... what a joke! Commission on PrePay is minimal, just a 15-20% margin on handset sales and the same on top-up's! Same for every network and always has been. Substantial commissions are only made from contract sales."

He derides my factual comment.

He talks like he knows everything about all networks.

If you were new to this forum you might indeed belive he did.

But just to prove he openly lies - I mean he saw this document as well - cut and paste this link into your browser, scroll down to Orange, look at the PAYG handets and look at the middle column marked connection commission and take a look at the figures. You'll see the Nokia 6600 have a commission rate on PAYG of £184.96.

You'll also see how the trade prices on the phones running up to £400 gross stake up to make loads of Orange PAYG users loss makers for the network.

Anyway take a look...

http://www.hughsymons.com/documents/hscm/pdf/hsc78_december_price_guide_email_web_version3.pdf

[Gunner]

"Yet we never see any posts from 3GSU about how much Oraneg must lose on PAYG customers - WHY IS THAT?"

Because if Orange were losing money on their PAYG handsets, they wouldn't be selling them ;)

[Killahurts]

But thats nonsense!

Orange clearly are losing money on PAYG customers as the document i just posted and my mums case eg shows

And despite Orange's attempts to penalise low contract users by raising a £50 penalty charge when they go to renew, they can do nothing about PAYG customers not spending.

Thats why 3PAY makes sense for 3 - whilst at the same time offering customers a good deal by giving them the best rates around on both phones and calls!

[A1c]

What a tactic - pick the most expesive example and try to make an issue about it. The SonyEricsson P-900 is about the least likely PAYG handset on the sheet! Finding one of them on PAYG is about as likely as warm snow!

More realistic is the Motorola V500 which costs the dealer £87.70 ex VAT and sells for £129.99 inc VAT typically.....that's approx £110 ex VAT, dealer profit = £ 22.30 or about 17.5% - pretty standard for electricals. most other popular models are about the same but multiples will have better margins of course. The network will have subsidised the deal by a small amount only (£20-30) which they should recover within a short period.

A P900 on PAYG.....over £450......what a joke as a serious example!

[Killahurts]

"pick the most expensive handset"

Well yeah thats exactly what you do when you say UP TO £190. Doh!!!

Strange that.

And what you fail to admit as always is your previous post was a bare faced lie.

I'm still waiting for a retraction.

Orange also pay over £100 commission on two other of their PAYG phones. And they pay commission on all of their PAYG phones.

So my mum like many others who dont top up regularly are easily gonna be loss leaders.

So you latest post has nothing to do with what we were discussing.

Does not contain a retraction for your lies.

It just contains more smokes and mirrors and shows you for the fraud you are!

[18736]

What a tactic - pick the most expesive example and try to make an issue about it. The SonyEricsson P-900 is about the least likely PAYG handset on the sheet! Finding one of them on PAYG is about as likely as warm snow!

More realistic is the Motorola V500 which costs the dealer £87.70 ex VAT and sells for £129.99 inc VAT typically.....that's approx £110 ex VAT, dealer profit = £ 22.30 or about 17.5% - pretty standard for electricals. most other popular models are about the same but multiples will have better margins of course. The network will have subsidised the deal by a small amount only (£20-30) which they should recover within a short period.

A P900 on PAYG.....over £450......what a joke as a serious example!

I see nothing changes on this forum!

3GSU still talking crap! :o

[solo12002]

Just for info:

http://www.hughsymons.com/documents/hscm/pdf/12_2004_hscm_pdf_5bull_jan.pdf

http://www.hughsymons.com/documents/hscm/pdf/12_2004_hscm_pdf_5pric_jan.pdf

[Killahurts]

3 Seller - welcome back and totally

Have you seen his latest attempts to knock three - pitiful

How desperate can that man get!

And Solo thanks for the figures again.

[Simon11244]

If you actually read the full details in the commission info you will find that whilst the commission for the 6600 is approx £185 this does not take into account the fact that the shop has to pay nearly £300 for the handset leaving the shop to pay £115 whilst 115 is cheap I as an individual can buy a 6600 for around £200 which means the subsidy is nearer £85 and if you take into account oranges buying power I suspect they are paying nearer the £100 than the £200 mark

[Killahurts]

NOt quite cos if what your saying is true the shops will pay the net trade price - £104 and will get £185 in commission making 84 quid.

Ofcourse this is assuming that the buyer doesnt take out text and MMS bundles for which even more commission is paid.

So as i say in my mums case - low user £50 a year - Orange are losing her on.

So as i say 3Pay is good all round - guaranteed monthly income for the network and best prices around for the customer.

[Gunner]

How is Threepay good all-round if it'd cost your mum £180 a year when Orange only costs her £50?

[Killahurts]

Fair comment.

I should have contextualised my comments

Threepay is unbeatable if you're spending around 15 quid a month - as arguably most PAYG users do when you add in texts and calls and MMS.

But Im happy for my mum to be with Orange - and costing them money every year - and hope she encourages all her low user friends to do the same lol

[agent O]

does anybody know when O2 3g is gonna launch
lololololololololololololololololololololololololo lololololol
:D

god i love the tangents these posts take

[Killahurts]

Nope and with them spending more time (and money) on lobbying the government authorities to waive the target of hitting 80% coverage by 2007 - time and money that could be spent on rolling out their network - its anyone's guess.

A report posted elsewhere today suggest its may be autumn 2005 before they launch their initial service - well behind everyone else.

But ofcourse thats not a firm target and would be dependent upon all their targets being hit.

And as we have seen from Orange and TMobile thats not something thats easy to do...